Long Beach--Valerie Macy Hurley

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Thank you.

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Okay.

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Hey, Valerie.

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Hi, Renee.

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Thank you so much for being here.

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If you can start off and just tell me your, your name, your professional designation, the community you mostly are working in and anything about your training.

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My name is Valerie Macy Hurley and I'm a licensed clinical social worker.

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I primarily serve the Long Beach community However, I'm available to work with anybody in the state of California via telehealth.

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Thank you.

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Now, can you tell us a little bit about how or why you became a therapist?

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Gosh, you know, I was as young as.

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Honestly, 10 or 11 when I first started thinking about being a therapist.

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I don't remember exactly what it was not having any therapists in the family, but I took an interest in psychology at a young age and Had a like almost a drive or a mission to help people that were struggling with things that were internal that were misunderstood.

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I think my whole is I've kind of rooted for the underdog.

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And I can only guess that I must have noticed young on that.

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Those are the people that are struggling.

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I don't know.

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I just was more driven to help them I have made it part of my, Life's journey to be inclusive and to reach out to those that are marginalized.

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And the more experiences I had working in social justice, I was able to pick what track I wanted to take in the mental health world.

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And.

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Initially, I thought I was going to be a psychologist.

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And once I did a program called the Jesuit Volunteer Corps, which is like the Peace Corps And I, I met a few social workers and I knew that's what I want to do.

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I love the emphasis that social work has not only on using mental health strategies, such as cognitive behavioral techniques or traditional psychodynamic therapy, But I think what takes social work above and beyond that traditional mental health clinician role is our emphasis on social justice, our emphasis on systems and understanding how society at large and politics and our communities kind of impact mental health and our strength Being that we're really good at working with multidisciplinary teams and helping people access all the various resources They need to get up.

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Okay.

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I love that.

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Thank you now before we talk about how you practice therapy Would you be willing to tell us about your own first experience?

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To therapy as a patient, because most, most, I don't know if everyone knows this, but many people, most therapists do, do their own therapy at some point.

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Absolutely.

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Yes, I, I remember I already had my license and I had already been practicing when I finally decided to get my own therapy.

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And in my specific case, it was just.

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Lots of surgeries that had happened for me in a very short period of time, and I started experiencing symptoms of panic attacks, and I was terrified.

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And even me as a clinician, you know, I go to the hospital, and I think I'm having a heart attack.

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You know, one of the social workers that knew me there was like, Val, I think you're having a panic attack.

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And it was just, it was really humbling.

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You know, we're not, none of us are immune to mental health struggles.

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It doesn't matter what our background is.

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It, you know, we could be rich, poor, single, married, healthy, struggling with our health black, white.

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none of us are immune from mental health struggles.

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And I.

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I found it to be very humbling and I also think it's made me a better clinician.

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I walked into that room and I made a joke right away about being a therapist needing therapy and the therapist just kind of joked along with me and from there with a sense of humor, I was able to feel comfortable and open up and my, I was very lucky.

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My first therapist, we really connected and I found it to be so beneficial.

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So yeah, yeah, it definitely has made me a stronger clinician, a better person.

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And I also think it's fundamentally inspired me to weave in humor and authenticity into my sessions.

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I love that.

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I love that.

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Okay, well, tell us a little bit about how you, how you define or think about psychotherapy.

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So you said you kind of weave in some humor a little bit in the beginning, but what, how do you, how do you understand what psychotherapy is?

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How is it different from just talking with someone?

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Absolutely.

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That's a great question.

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And one, I had a lot of experience answering.

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When you're in a psychotherapeutic relationship, it's professional.

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So the, the therapist is using their skills, their knowledge their expertise.

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to address problems not unlike a doctor would or a physical therapist might.

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So, if you're talking to a friend about depression, they might, you know, really cheer you up and remind you what a great person you are, maybe pull on your strengths, which is something that a therapist should do.

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But we take it to another level.

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So in therapy, I'm providing cognitive behavioral strategies that they can utilize.

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I'm helping them understand how the brain works, the mind body connection, and I'm weaving different strategies, whether it's mindfulness, exposure response for anxiety or obsessive compulsive disorder, trauma informed care.

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Or just traditional psychotherapy where we're talking about family dynamics and.

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You know, personality issues that might be interfering with deeper connections or better productivity, and it's kind of a, it's a tailored approach that I take and you can't do that with a friend.

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I will also say that with a friend or a family member, there's always bias.

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You're supposed to go in as this unbiased person that's not connected to the individual in a personal way outside the therapeutic environment So unlike with a friend, you're able to take a more neutral stance and not be swayed one way or the other when trying to help that person discover maybe barriers that are going on internally or externally in their life and also strategies to overcome those barriers.

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Right.

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So it's very different than just a regular conversation for sure.

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Okay.

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So you kind of mentioned a few different Approaches.

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Can you tell us what, and I know this might be hard because I'm sure you've been influenced by many things, but what approaches or theories of therapy have influenced you the most.

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And if you can just give a few little bits about that approach, that even like, you know, a 10 year old might understand just really simple language about what every theory has sort of influenced you the most

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Renee, I will say that it does depend on the diagnosis.

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that's where I do take a tailored approach.

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I think no matter who I'm working with and whatever the diagnosis is, there's always a strength based approach where I am trying to help them identify the gifts that they have, the strengths that they have.

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To push through the hard times I guess I would start with that and taking a humanistic approach where I'm seeing the person as a human being.

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I'm reaching out to them with compassion and trying to connect authentically, but I do rely heavily upon exposure response prevention when I'm working with.

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Obsessive compulsive disorder anxiety and I, and I don't if I'm working with depression or I'm working with, you know, even trauma I will say, I tend to use cognitive behavioral therapy with everybody and to weave in mindfulness.

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As part of the dialectical behavioral or cognitive behavioral work that I do, because I think it, gives results, it gives results quickly.

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So maybe even though I'm throwing in other strategies here and there, I'm talking about the brain.

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I'm talking about how you access your higher level of functioning, what you do when you're in that like fight, flight or flee mode, how you overcome it.

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And that's where I'll draw heavily upon dialectical behavioral and cognitive behavioral therapy works great for kids, really works great for kids because it's concrete and it's visible like we'll draw a little handouts or we'll act it out doing role play or dress up and then, you know, If I can explain to him in a way that's simple and clear, they can go around and teach it to their parents because everybody can benefit from these things.

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So, for example, I might, I might teach them about the power of recognizing when they're using a filter.

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So maybe, you know, little Johnny on the playground.

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says no, you can't play with us.

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And then they think they don't like me.

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I'm a loser.

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I have no friends and they get, you know, so depressed.

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They start crying.

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Then it just furthers the isolation because then they're the cry baby, et cetera, et cetera.

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So maybe I step in and I say, okay, maybe that's true.

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But what if we looked at it a different way?

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This is the story you're telling yourself now, but what if there's another possibility?

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What if Johnny said no because there was already enough people on his team?

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What if Johnny said no because five other kids had already come up to him and he didn't want to pick anymore.

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He just wanted to start playing, right?

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And then that can change.

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If we practice that enough again, that, that kind of transcends the diagnosis.

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Cause everybody struggles with.

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Feeling lonely sometimes or left out or, you know, negative and kids do really well when they're young they can, confront and challenge those negative ways of seeing the world.

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Okay.

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Got it.

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So you really tailor it to whatever the diagnosis is and maybe even like the age level of the person, if it's a kid versus an adult.

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Right.

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If it's a kid or an adolescent, I often draw upon family based therapy modality as well.

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And I think it's super important to bring the parents in when they're willing and able.

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With that being said, I, I might not do that with everybody.

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Sometimes parents aren't available.

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Sometimes the kids don't want them there.

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But I do, I try even with those kids.

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Families where maybe they're not coming into session, I do try to keep them updated vaguely so the family understands not only what's going on and what they're paying for, but how they can support their child to the best of their ability.

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Okay.

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And obviously I'm not going to do that with a 30 year old.

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Sure, sure, sure.

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Now, could you give us a very brief, if someone were coming to you for the first time, what would a very brief outline look like for a course of therapy with you?

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I know this can obviously vary on how, what people are bringing, but generally.

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What's a brief outline look like?

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Sure.

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That's a great question.

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The first time we connect, I do a free consult for about 15 minutes.

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And and then we arrange a time to get together.

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We kind of get a better sense of Is this a good fit?

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Although that can often happen just in that initial 15 minute conversation.

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From there it takes usually, it depends on how complex the case is, anywhere from one to three sessions to flesh out what the diagnosis is and then after that work on that treatment plan.

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Where we'll develop concrete, measurable goals, both short term and long term that might and some of the goals won't be as concrete.

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They'll be broader, such as I want to have a better relationship with my.

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Daughter I'll know this because we will be fighting less, but then specifically, we'll break it down short term goals, like, okay, you know, right now for the next month, we're going to be focusing on decreasing arguments from three times a day to once a day.

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So we try to make it concrete and and then each session I'll usually give them a task or two to really hone it on.

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So.

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For example I was working with somebody with anxiety yesterday, and I was talking with them.

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They get overwhelmed easy about different time management options that they can use.

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So we talked about, you know, a technique that will help them stay on task.

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And then we also talked about.

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A mindfulness technique that they can use no matter what state their brain is in to take it down a notch so they can think more clearly to complete their, their tasks typically therapy.

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Is that a minimum of, I would say for four months, I am most of the time it's six months to a year.

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I think it depends on the scenario.

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I, I had one client that just, you know, sometimes they can do it in 12 to 16 sessions.

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And that usually happens when there's not a lot of trauma.

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There's not a lot of complex mental health issues going on, but maybe.

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You know, they're recovering from an illness, or maybe they just need short term help.

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Okay.

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I know some therapists really focus in on certain areas or certain modalities.

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do you have any specialties or special certifications?

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Yes.

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I'm trauma informed care certified, but I think beyond even more than that, I specialize in obsessive compulsive disorder and attention deficit hyperactivity disorder.

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I also have a lot of experience working with eating disorders and body dysmorphia as they do kind of.

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They tend to cluster with OCD or otherwise known as obsessive compulsive disorder.

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Okay.

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Now I know this is going to be a hard question because it's kind of specific, but just to give people a sense.

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And I think you did this a little bit previously with the, the young boy in the playground, but example, what would be an example of like a method or something you might do with someone in therapy?

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Do you have, I don't know, there's all kinds of different methods just to give someone an idea of what they could expect.

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methodology or one specific,

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like an intervention type thing?

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One.

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Yeah.

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Like something like filling out a form or I know there's all kinds of different things people do exposure.

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I mean, I don't know.

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Just what, what does one look like?

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Yeah, I'll give an example of a child that I'm working, I work with that has medical trauma.

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I do, I also specialize in medical trauma.

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I worked at Miller Children's Hospital for 15 years in outpatient and inpatient settings.

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And I have a I have a very good knowledge base of how, you know, medical conditions can, can lead to mental health struggles and vice versa.

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Okay,

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so I have this kid who has been tantruming ever since his latest surgery, really bad.

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Every time, you know, he asks to do something he doesn't want to do.

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Right, or he's asked to change a task that he's already really into.

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So we will do play therapy in session where we're practicing having him shift activities or practicing asking to do something he doesn't want to do, like clean up the Jenga blocks.

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And inevitably he has a tantrum each time.

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So I'm working with mom while she's there.

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It's like a modified parent parent child, PCIT parent child interactive therapy, where I'm modeling to the parent appropriate strategies, encouraging them to, you know, kind of state what they're seeing and reflect back what they're seeing acknowledge what their child is going through.

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And, and then, Help them reach out and help them remind them of what the skills they have are and then repair at so I will model it for them in session and walk them through it.

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And then, you know, I might encourage them to do that at home 3 times before our next session.

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Whereas if I'm working with somebody that has obsessive compulsive disorder, perhaps they have.

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They feel the need to, you know.

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Not step on you know, not step on cracks in their bathroom or something bad might happen to somebody.

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We might start off with, okay, we will now have you put your foot really close to the To the crack, and then maybe we'll have you put one toe on the crack, or maybe, you know, and so we slowly build up to it while I often do that, I'm giving them strategies to help them work through that wave, that giant wave of anxiety that comes along with it.

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So maybe we're simultaneously working on engaging their senses.

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To ride that wave of emotion to allow themselves to feel it without getting stuck in it by trying to be more of an observer to their emotional experience than getting all caught up on it and going along for a never ending ride.

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So I hope that helps.

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I tried to give a couple of examples based on the the issue that is, you know, being presented in the session.

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Yeah, those are, those are great examples.

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They kind of give people an idea of what could, all the different possibilities of what could happen in therapy, kind of based on what they bring in, that there's something.

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That they can learn.

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I, I love the example of the parent actually being in the room and learning along with you, you know, how to work with her son.

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That was, that is really cool.

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You know, Renee, I will also say that if I'm a lot of times I have people that are coming to me for relationship issues.

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And so we'll actually spend quite a lot of time talking about various interactions that they had during the week.

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And this is where it really helps.

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If.

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You know, if clients want to come to therapy and they're willing to put in the work, it's going to go, they're going to get more out of it.

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So if a client's coming in, I'm like, how was your week?

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Fine.

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Well, it's going to be really hard to do a whole lot with that.

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But if they say, Hey, you know, actually I had this run in with a friend or a coworker or my husband or my child, and then I can kind of break it down with them and help them understand.

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Maybe if they had some distorted thoughts that were getting in the way, maybe if there's some personality issues or tendencies that they have maybe them help helping them better understand the other person or people involved in that exchange and what they can do next time to like, kind of press pause.

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Reassess their surroundings and then move forward so that they don't get stuck in that same struggle moving forward.

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That's great What do you think makes therapy work or not work?

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And how do you know if, How do you check in on that or figure that out?

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Yeah,

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a lot of ways.

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That's why we do treatment goals.

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And that's why we do both short term and long term goals.

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When those goals are being met, sometimes they'll come in and say, Okay, now I've worked on the depression.

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I really want to start working on my trauma.

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And so just because you continue for a long time doesn't necessarily mean it's not working, but you'll notice that you're meeting those goals.

00:19:05.700 --> 00:19:08.569
You'll notice that every day isn't as hard.

00:19:08.619 --> 00:19:15.559
You'll notice that maybe your kids are not coming home saying this is the worst day all the time or.

00:19:15.924 --> 00:19:21.382
They're maybe getting invited to something or they are doing better in school.

00:19:21.382 --> 00:19:29.912
So we, we look at what's called overall functioning when evaluating how somebody is doing when they first come in and how they're doing, you know, we, we do regular checkups.

00:19:29.912 --> 00:19:32.281
We do three to six month checkups on treatment goals.

00:19:32.662 --> 00:19:34.211
I actually do it pretty much every week.

00:19:34.432 --> 00:19:36.682
I'll remind them at least what their short term goals are.

00:19:36.971 --> 00:19:41.642
And that way they can keep tabs on the progress that they're making.

00:19:41.751 --> 00:19:45.461
That's also the importance of bringing that strengths based approach in there.

00:19:45.461 --> 00:19:53.961
When you help people realize all the things that they're achieving and the progress that they're making, that motivates them to continue doing more work.

00:19:54.231 --> 00:19:58.852
But I will also say, There is a thing, there is something to be said about goodness of fit, right?

00:19:58.862 --> 00:19:59.692
Okay, sure.

00:19:59.751 --> 00:20:17.838
So if, if you're, you know, for example gosh, if you are the kind of person that wants a very serious provider, that's maybe more quiet and more of an observer and like a sounding board Not every therapist is going to have that personality.

00:20:17.858 --> 00:20:31.489
So maybe you would do better with, you know, therapist a, but if you're looking for a therapist, that's fun, playful, humorous you know, likes to really connect, then you might be looking for a therapist B.

00:20:32.028 --> 00:20:33.778
And sometimes you don't know until you try.

00:20:34.568 --> 00:20:35.108
It's true.

00:20:35.108 --> 00:20:36.758
Yeah.

00:20:37.318 --> 00:20:44.983
I would also say You, you don't feel like you have to be there as much like it's like you start to.

00:20:45.001 --> 00:20:51.301
be able to implement the things you're learning in therapy without the frequent reminder of a weekly session.

00:20:51.311 --> 00:20:59.352
So maybe then a lot of times what I'll do is when a client's getting closer to graduating, but they're not quite ready, maybe we'll reduce the frequency of sessions.

00:20:59.721 --> 00:21:04.332
So sometimes people will start twice a week with me, and then we'll go to once a week, and then we'll go to every other week.

00:21:04.791 --> 00:21:11.001
And typically if you're going less than every other week or gosh, once a month, that means you're pretty much, you're done, you're done.

00:21:11.001 --> 00:21:11.682
You can discharge.

00:21:11.682 --> 00:21:13.801
And if you need to go back, you can go back in the future.

00:21:14.342 --> 00:21:14.981
So I hope that helps.

00:21:15.311 --> 00:21:15.991
That does help.

00:21:16.001 --> 00:21:18.152
That actually makes a lot of, makes a lot of sense.

00:21:18.152 --> 00:21:23.882
And that, you know, over time you can sort of track your treatment goals and see how well you're achieving them.

00:21:23.882 --> 00:21:33.842
And, and as you stop needing, feeling the need to be in therapy and it's lesser and lesser that you've, you know, you're kind of moving towards moving on.

00:21:34.231 --> 00:21:34.961
Okay.

00:21:35.571 --> 00:21:38.892
Now I'm going to get a little philosophical here for our last three questions.

00:21:40.011 --> 00:21:46.811
And yeah, I'd really love to know what you think makes a good therapist, those characteristics.

00:21:46.842 --> 00:21:53.991
I, and I know maybe you kind of mentioned this before, that there is fit and that's part of it, but in general, what makes a good therapist?

00:21:54.991 --> 00:22:08.501
Somebody that's warm and empathetic, somebody that's, Non judgmental, somebody that is humble enough to take feedback and adjust accordingly if needed.

00:22:09.126 --> 00:22:13.696
Somebody that holds firm boundaries so that your client feels safe.

00:22:14.616 --> 00:22:21.894
Somebody that respects the private nature and the confidential nature of the therapeutic relationship and honors that.

00:22:21.894 --> 00:22:23.660
And I, really think it's helpful.

00:22:23.660 --> 00:22:36.549
For a therapist to be authentic and in touch with their own values and living a life outside of the therapeutic environment that aligns with the strategies you're teaching and encouraging your clients to to do.

00:22:37.319 --> 00:22:37.950
Okay.

00:22:38.130 --> 00:22:40.079
I I, I love, I love that answer.

00:22:40.319 --> 00:22:41.279
It's beautiful.

00:22:41.349 --> 00:22:44.845
What do you think surprises people about therapy?

00:22:45.450 --> 00:22:55.240
Or, you know, I don't know if you had this experience of being surprised by being a patient or just in general, what surprises people about therapy?

00:22:55.634 --> 00:22:56.884
How it really works.

00:22:57.884 --> 00:22:58.693
Oh, my gosh.

00:22:59.074 --> 00:22:59.413
Wow.

00:23:00.614 --> 00:23:03.763
I didn't realize how bad things were until they got good.

00:23:03.763 --> 00:23:07.584
And it's, yeah.

00:23:07.894 --> 00:23:31.354
And, and you know, the, the reality is that most of my clients, they, you know, they graduate and they move on and I get, I get new clients and you know, they can always come back if they, if they need to, but And then, of course, there is the ones that have more, you think about chronic health condition in general with your body, if you're dealing with you know, autoimmune disease, it's lifelong, you're probably going to stay in touch with that doctor more frequently.

00:23:31.693 --> 00:23:39.034
But if you just had coven and you had, like, short term symptoms, you maybe only need to see that doctor for a few months.

00:23:39.044 --> 00:23:41.993
So it's the same with, with therapy.

00:23:42.153 --> 00:23:48.114
But even those that come to me and don't leave and I've had, you know, for a couple of years, it's still working.

00:23:48.124 --> 00:23:51.693
They're achieving goals and then they're replacing them with new goals.

00:23:52.124 --> 00:23:54.503
It's not like we've been working on the same thing for two years.

00:23:54.503 --> 00:23:55.733
I think that's what surprises them.

00:23:55.733 --> 00:23:59.753
I also think a lot of times people are surprised at how fast it goes by.

00:24:00.153 --> 00:24:01.273
But it's already over.

00:24:02.463 --> 00:24:04.403
A session you mean or the whole?

00:24:04.943 --> 00:24:05.243
Okay.

00:24:05.740 --> 00:24:11.710
And especially with, with kids, the parents are, are always concerned that the kids aren't going to want to come.

00:24:11.710 --> 00:24:15.559
But when you're doing play and art therapy with kids, they like it.

00:24:15.609 --> 00:24:16.019
They want to come.

00:24:16.720 --> 00:24:17.180
They enjoy

00:24:17.180 --> 00:24:17.410
it.

00:24:17.507 --> 00:24:18.436
I love that.

00:24:18.467 --> 00:24:20.507
It's enjoyable and it works.

00:24:20.676 --> 00:24:22.666
What awesome, awesome answers.

00:24:22.737 --> 00:24:23.356
Okay.

00:24:23.767 --> 00:24:32.136
Our last one is, what do you think the public might misunderstand about therapy?

00:24:32.436 --> 00:24:37.126
Or you could also just say if you had to leave a parting message to the public about therapy.

00:24:37.576 --> 00:24:38.267
What would it be?

00:24:38.326 --> 00:24:45.017
So what's misunderstood or what would you want to tell people about therapy that maybe they don't know?

00:24:46.017 --> 00:24:54.116
I would say that therapy is stigmatized because we somehow have decided that our brains are not part of the rest of our body.

00:24:54.886 --> 00:25:00.186
Our behaviors and emotions are somehow not as worthy of treatment.

00:25:00.186 --> 00:25:03.507
I would say that therapy Is for everyone.

00:25:03.559 --> 00:25:08.710
I agree that that there isn't a human being on this planet that couldn't benefit from therapy.

00:25:09.535 --> 00:25:12.491
And Don't, don't wait for things to get harder.

00:25:12.501 --> 00:25:13.882
Don't wait for things to get worse.

00:25:13.882 --> 00:25:15.021
Just, just do it.

00:25:16.021 --> 00:25:24.122
I need, I need to work for Nike now, but I think people are afraid that they're admitting defeat by, Oh, I have to put my kid in therapy.

00:25:24.122 --> 00:25:25.942
I'm not a good parent or I have to put myself in therapy.

00:25:25.942 --> 00:25:47.602
I'm not or I, you know, I'm such a failure, but like, You wouldn't say that about taking your kid to the pediatrician for their annual checkup or yourself to your yearly visit or, you know, I, it's just mind boggling to me now that I've been doing this for a while and I've had my own therapy and I've had my kids in therapy that people aren't more open to it because it works.

00:25:47.801 --> 00:25:48.321
It works.

00:25:48.751 --> 00:25:49.582
It works.

00:25:50.221 --> 00:26:01.747
Yes, I, I totally agree that we would have no shame at all about going to get a cavity filled, or going to the doctor, but, and I think it's less and less with therapy.

00:26:01.767 --> 00:26:04.346
So I think that is a change that's happening.

00:26:04.777 --> 00:26:05.477
I have a lot of

00:26:05.477 --> 00:26:05.632
hope.

00:26:05.632 --> 00:26:07.757
It's one of the good things that came out of COVID.

00:26:07.817 --> 00:26:13.717
I believe that we're working more as a community about talking about mental health struggles, neurodiversity.

00:26:14.267 --> 00:26:28.420
I think we have a long way to go, but There has been progress made, and I hope that with every client I have walked through my doors, the information I share somehow trickles down and inspires other people in their lives to get help as well.

00:26:28.789 --> 00:26:29.630
I love that.

00:26:29.630 --> 00:26:31.549
And Valerie, that was our last question.

00:26:31.579 --> 00:26:34.099
I just want to say thank you so much.

00:26:34.414 --> 00:26:39.704
Thank you for being a therapist in Long Beach and the surrounding areas.

00:26:39.795 --> 00:26:45.464
Thank you for everything you do and changing each life and the lives around them.

00:26:45.994 --> 00:26:46.775
Love that.

00:26:46.785 --> 00:26:48.765
Appreciate what you shared today.

00:26:48.855 --> 00:26:50.525
Thank you so much for this interview.

00:26:50.914 --> 00:26:52.045
I mean, it was an honor.

00:26:52.045 --> 00:26:52.509
It

00:26:52.509 --> 00:26:57.154
was a joy and a privilege to have this space to reflect and talk about it.

00:26:57.214 --> 00:26:58.005
So thank you.

00:26:58.865 --> 00:27:00.335
Thank you so much for listening.

00:27:00.335 --> 00:27:05.615
For more information about the interviews, please check out our website at greetingstherapist.

00:27:05.615 --> 00:27:06.015
com.

00:27:06.404 --> 00:27:10.805
Our interviews are strictly for educational and entertainment purposes only.

00:27:11.204 --> 00:27:17.724
No therapist client relationship has been formed and no medical or mental health advice has been given.

00:27:18.065 --> 00:27:19.295
Thank you for being here.

00:27:19.315 --> 00:27:20.115
See you next time.

00:28:07.039 --> 00:28:08.599
Thanks so much for listening.

00:28:08.599 --> 00:28:13.819
More information about our therapists can be found on our website@greetingstherapist.com.

00:28:14.289 --> 00:28:19.240
Our interviews are for educational and entertainment purposes only.

00:28:19.630 --> 00:28:28.220
No client therapist relationship has been formed and no medical or mental health advice has been offered.

00:28:28.490 --> 00:28:29.779
Thanks so much for listening.

00:28:29.779 --> 00:28:30.589
See you next time.